As I move from trying to repair to quit relationships compromise really is a set of trades I'll do this if you do that Seeds for your marriage All right It is official It is official Welcome to Seeds for your Marriage podcast I'm Thomas and I'm Tricia And we are joined today by Phyllis and Sherrod Miller And we are just so thrilled to have you with us Our journey started with you in 2010 2010 So we've been we've been with you for 14 years and counting So welcome to the Seeds for your marriage podcast And let's get started I had an internship at the court services in Minneapolis and the county court service and part of my job was to evaluate kids whether they should get married or not They were teenagers Let's put it that way Yeah there was The law was if a girl was 16 she needed parent or court permission to marry And so that's where some would come to the court to see if the court would sign off for them The irony of the thing was all they had to do is drive to South Dakota and get married because their the law was age 15 four or 14 I think Well anyway it was younger and the so it was you know kind of fruitless I thought And so what occurred to me is rather than try and evaluate these these kids because they were really I would say 95% of the couples the girl was already pregnant So I thought well let's shift and start offering a class to equip them rather than try and prevent them or whatever Anyway And that was huge in my mind And what shifted as I move from trying to repair to equip relationships And so from that time on and at the university there were colleagues there We were in graduate school together and we started to develop what's now known as coupled communication And so the thrust is really been on equipping people to do better together rather than waiting till they're on the ropes and go for repair I love that I love the comment instead of repair I want to equip them I just I love that Yeah it's proactive instead of reactive by nature It's educational Even though for some couples it can be therapeutic or you know fit in counseling So it it kind of fits the spectrum I think Well and what we've learned over the years I think is that good therapy has an equipping element in it And the couples program is used by a lot of therapists as well as in other more educational or developmental settings or churches primarily and and schools so forth I can tell you we are a case of one marriage that you have equipped us to actually help to build a healthy marriage Our own marriage Our own marriage First rate starts with us Breaking starts It does start with us And I'm curious Phyllis and Sharon just healthy is the word I use And I'm curious your definition or how you think about a healthy marriage Well let me show you something that's really kind of a simple Okay I think using my hands here and by the way you'll see a little shape is that I have what's called an essential tremor It's a Swedish gene runs through her family cousins a dentist think of two people Okay? Each man's a person here and when they come together they join You know they have fun together they make love and then sometimes they fight Okay? And argue that that's togetherness in a sense Then there's a time when they're apart and that you see both hands here I can see So you know she goes to work and whatever her day is and activities and he's into his day and so forth So they're together And then there's a partner's and there's a kind of a flow of that So and then there's the time when she leads and he follows And there's a time when he leads and she follows And so if you think about it now when my experience when couples get in trouble is they get stuck they can't get together because they fight too much They're afraid to get apart in it or they spend a lot of time apart because something is not working here And more traditionally the man's led and the woman's followed And in that becomes a pattern So they kind of get together once in a while and then he leads And what's missing is her leading and his accepting their influence So with that shaky illustration for me a really healthy marriage is one that that has this dance of all the steps all the possibilities in it it counts their individuality and their togetherness I love them All right Yeah That's so good Yeah I think early in the early in the collaborative marriage skills you talk about two powerful people And I think that you know you talk about the fact that I am I'm an individual which is an individual There's a me and but there's also that we component And I think that's exactly what you're speaking to us how to move through life with that flow and where we don't lose ourselves in each other We maintain our individuality but we also build that that sense of connection and togetherness And one of the goals of the couple communication program is to help each person be stronger in the sense that they can speak each of them for themselves with caring for the other caring for themselves the other person and for their relationship And so I think all of those are important Yeah absolutely Yeah I mean just the way that God made us he made us unique And we each when we come when we get married we each bring our our strengths into that relationship And my strength might not be Thomas's and Thomas's might not be mine So just if you're we you know if we're able to work together and learn in what situations I lead and what situations Thomas leads it really helps with the marriage to move forward together And you know like you said then you end up spending less time fighting Yes So whenever I was really able to get fully like really be able to work the wheel and start getting to the deeper ones for not only for me but for us for the family I was actually able to realize that the root of really why I wanted to homeschool with my children is because I really wanted to I really wanted them to grow up where they knew the Lord and they knew they had a good foundation in understanding Christ how to relate to Christ And I was in the understanding that the only way that was going to happen is if I homeschooled them Yeah but you have to be able to talk about it to have time in way but in a healthy way That's the essence of of this And Sharon I remember you always talking about the secret sauce Okay Yeah that is that is one piece I think of what would we call it? A framework a map that we teach in couple communication And there would you will map just a bit And then the part that he calls that you have called the secret sauce because yeah let's literally save the secret sauce because we're have for just a moment and just yeah it's like running a commercial and you know we're sorry we're cutting away you know come back I'll tell you that secret and then you got to stay tuned All right Here's the commercial First of all let let's just real briefly say what we developed at the University of Minnesota in research was a program called Couple Communication And basically there are four units or four segments And we want to briefly mention that because you'll see how the secret sauce positions in there But the first session we teach in each of the sessions we teach what I call maps cognitive maps mental maps and then skill associated with it So on these maps one map is to teach people how to talk together Another how to listen to one another how to put these together And I think it begins with a map of how people talk And we call it styles of communication And they're really I don't want to detail them You can look it up on the Internet that more information But anyway how people talk effective ways and in effective ways is the first session and then they look at themselves And now our system how do we talk to each other and how much percent and small talk how much in in shop talk control talk quite spite And then what we call search talk and aware talk And those there's a map of this and people find themself in the map where they are and where they'd like to go That's the nice thing about a map shows you where you are and gives you a choice an alternative It really comes down to very powerful Let me say in the 1970s when we first started developing this emotions were really a big deal It's kind of like getting in touch with your emotions Everything would fall together by the way The wheel every one of those zones are important and they're all going on This is the stuff that's inside of us as we interact with the outside world So I don't want to overemphasize one zone to the other They're all important But what we found is the thing that's been least developed in in the literature and so forth is the business around wants and they're very powerful So when we first developed the wheel many years ago we had under want zone self we did not have other and us and they didn't mean to do that because each of the zones would be what I think what I've seen and heard what I did or what I will do what my emotions are So at the beginning it was just what do I want without consideration for what I might want for our relationship or for what? What I might want for my partner that my partner would say Yes I would want that So what we were doing and unknowingly and inadvertently is teaching people to be flaming narcissist in in the sense that it fills with say what she want and I'd say what I want Pretty forceful Okay So anyway what's going on is now that I've told you all about my wheel and I've said what I want I should get it And literally for some years that's what we were teaching And what we didn't realize is there was no bridge there was no other in the system And so that changed and it was huge So let me start with wants for self Those are real important They're legitimate in somebody who has a poor sense of themself has trouble speaking their wants or knowing their wants and the really problematic thing is when somebody doesn't speak their wants and put it out on the table and in a sense make it known and negotiable it becomes a hidden agenda And so that you have this powerful force that I'm not telling you about that I really want that's making interactions and decisions and life screwy and unknown in many ways So to be able to put your wants on the table doesn't mean I get everything I want but it's counting myself in So that's an important piece But I'm not the only person in the system and you want to talk Well it's the relationship So we added to this is what do I want for my partner? That my partner agrees that yes I would like that or based on my partner's interests what do I want for you based on your interests which as you said for example maybe my partner wants to go back to school and get some further education or training that kind of thing And what that means is that's more costs for the family or that might be all kinds of things That might mean that my partner can't work as much to earn money or whatever and maybe me as a partner would or the partner would say Well I'd like you to do that too How can we figure that out? And the third want is what would be wants for our relationship? What what would help for both this a relationship? So you're thinking in terms of all of those aspects of it That becomes a way to negotiate how we can get to some of that It might take longer to go to school than you know I had maybe originally thought or it might take some kind of adjustment some way But getting all of those wants out is important rather than keeping it part of it hidden and doing some kind of underhanded ways to see if I can get what I would like And they talk about compromise Well I'm compromising for you and I'm compromising in this situation and but I'm not getting what I want or whatever the situation is And I think back to this example that I gave with our children and the homeschooling versus Christian school situation And if all if the idea was compromised then one of us would have said okay will you just homeschool then? And like Thomas Curtis said you just homeschool then and we'll just we'll just make it work And there'd be some resentment there Exactly There'd be some resentment So you all talk about collaboration and how to have a collaborative marriage And so I would love for you to talk about the difference between compromise and collaboration in a relationship Lester With compromise Yeah go ahead Yeah Yeah Well compromise really is a set of trades I'll do this if you do that All right? I give you a gift to get Yes And I gain something and I lose something You gain something and you lose something And so what that is is for some people that's the highest level they can ever get to But it's fragile Well partly what makes it fragile is when I think about it what do I think about what I got or what I gave up? Yeah most people that had biological parents which by the way as everybody think all kinds of stories you know about But we're all human And you know we we think about what we give up in and lose more than we get And that is often a set up for failure of whatever the dispute is or the issue is or whatever the the problem is that you're trying to do On the other hand what the the other thing about that soon is you said you would do this and I said I'd do this It's conditional Okay So as soon as I see you not doing what you said you would do that gives me permission not to do what I do Or a little slip up or a slip up Yeah Yeah And so I'm My eyes are on you and not on what I contribute or how I respond So that whole mindset as you say you see it on TV and you see it in our political world where it can't even get that far Yeah you know it compromises this the highest order you get to but it's in many cases seen as a bad word now So how do you transcend compromise to a what really is called collaboration? Okay And collaboration is really working together effectively to make a decision or resolve a conflict And I think really it requires both some skill and some goodwill both of those kinds of things Yeah When when that's not there is an underlying that I care about you and I care about me then all the kind of spiteful kind of communication the argument the fight as opposed to a focus by the way we've developed kind of I don't know we've developed it but we're using a new word that my colleague and I have just written a book two workbooks just on the awareness wheel and we call What We Talk About as inner action I and e r Actio n So using the wheel is interaction The skills are really interaction skills many of them as well So any way based on collaboration is based on your wheel And my wheel that we can both disclose We draw on my experience in your experience and that means that each person has to put it out there My experience in a respectful kind of way and it's based on wants for my partner myself and us as a relationship So it the skill part would come in to using the talking skills that that are taught in the couple communication program and the listening skills to bring that together to work out a decision in the maps The maps as you said help structure that and prompt it become kind of a platform for that But the the issue you mentioned about schooling with your kids once you've really discovered your your interest at a deeper level and fuller level really broader level what's really important then it takes you very naturally to okay now how do we implement this? Because you options you know and with that the spirit behind it is very different It is And I'll do this if you do that it's okay We've built an agreement here What are we going to do and how next steps how do we create it together? Yeah Yes And so we find a solution that we call a best fit solution that takes into account one another's wants of both of us in inner for the relationship And in your case the the US can extend maybe beyond the partner your father us of our family Right That's really good The sacrifice occurs It's an important thing But sacrifice would be a mutual kind of sacrifice That's right Yeah And in that I think with it comes a longer term view A lot of time sacrifice is kind of what I do now and what I'm upset or unhappy about what I have to sacrifice now That's where the US is thinking longer term If there's a US in a relationship I will sacrifice for it sometimes So it's as force and mutual The other piece is that work often can happen in sacrifice is one person does the sacrificing and the other person doesn't And so you get a pattern that's not healthy And remember the coming together going apart one leads one follows the other leads when follows But in sacrifice one leads and the other one sacrifice to always follow And it's never goes the other way But I have to say I think in our own relationship I don't see much sacrifice Occasionally we do but I think we more figure things out based on Phyllis's interests my interests and how can we make those both fit and sacrifice kind of evaporates But very often say with health care or disability or other you know change in jobs or commuting or you know there are a lot of external impacts that that hit us that we look at sacrifice is how can I transcend just my interests at this moment or longer term for the good of sometimes for spiritual good and for relational health? And and I think there's a question of long term what is better for the relationship long term what is better for our family long term and thinking of more than the just the now? Because I think we live in a word world of immediacy You know what do I want now? What? I don't want to give up something You know I want it now And sometimes it takes a longer term view and perhaps we can see that having a longer term relationship more that you know How long have you been married? Oh my goodness Forever Over 60 years We're pushing not 63 No no no 60 We're 61 and a half to be exact So that's that's a long time But I tell you we started it We're still working on trying to create a collaborative operating system Is that this is a lifetime journey I wouldn't say a lifetime project but we're working at it And but when we signed on and he's learned really well when we signed on rather than a collaborative operating system See I didn't sing when growing up I mean I didn't I didn't my folks did a lot of good things together but it wasn't always real collaborative It was dad leads mom follows kind of situation So when we got married we had a unilateral operating system you know and Phyllis was good follower for a while and then things started changing Member Also thinking about money and how money decisions were made some way I was talking with my folks about it and I was working I think teaching probably school early in our marriage together before I did a work in corporations But I said something to my parents about Well well I make money Sharon makes the decisions on how the money is spent And my dad said And that's the way it's supposed to be That's right I had good backup but that was her dad to bring it from the validation I think Well my parents I would say had a nice relationship And I think Sharon's parents did too By the way He thought I was excuse me but he thought I was me and he was tzachi Oh well you're talking about a TV show All in the Family And Archie was the father in law of type of thing Anyway I forgot what I was going to say except that you know that's how it was that we learned as a couple and we learned really from the couple communication program that he was developing about how to be more collaborative And I think definitely we are more collaborative now and it's important to in my view it's important at every stage in a relationship in a in a marriage particularly in dating Well whether Yeah but in every stage of the relationship Well we were maybe getting our schooling before we had children And we certainly with children it's very important And then when they leave how we live our lives together and just how we get navigate some of the issues we have at this point in our lives whether it's with health care or things like that So I think at every stage in a couple relationship and it's important when you asked about sacrifice and you got more than that but sacrifice I think as Sherrod's says to sum up as more of a long term look Yeah Well the other thing I like about is is I'm hearing when you take that long term view and you have healthy conversations around what it is your interests are making sacrifices where we're at choice and having conscious conversations and being able to willingly say I am willing to lay this down for the good of our relationship And I feel really good about that as opposed to being coerced or manipulated into giving up something I think there's a real difference between how one sacrifices this difference in the world By the way Thomas I wanted to pick up I'm going to borrow from you I love your phrase Speaking of the awareness wheel as a tool to unpack a situation I've never thought of it in that terms but that's exactly what that tools for unpacking what's going on inside of me stopping to reflect it and then trying to put the parts together concurrently so that I live can grow I think over the years for us in our own relationship we've had all the challenges that everybody else has had And the part of it is maybe not all of them not all we've had We missed one Well we haven't had all of them And I know that although there are more to come work now I'm nervous anyway that it's going to set over our lives Over our lives? Oh yeah Trying to live can grow really with our faith with our what we teach with the skills that and that's partly that our relationships keep being trying to live concurrently in the community and with our people is that's a high value I guess I'd say Thank you for listening to Seeds for your marriage with hosts Krista and Thomas Walker We pray this episode has given you tips and tools and how to thrive in your marriage Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Tricia and Thomas We want to hear from you Be sure to leave a review and let us know how we're doing It's our desire that this podcast completely benefits you So also let us know future marriage topics that you would like to hear about