Staying Strong Together When Your Children are Struggling w/ Addictions: Chuck & Linda McCallum's Story

This is the Seeds for Your Marriage Podcast where we interview married couples who have overcome difficulties in their marriage and share their testimony of how they did it. We want these tips and tools to inspire and help you thrive in your marriage. We are Tricia and Thomas Walker relationship coaches. We teach couples proven strategies to connect deeply and achieve God's design for an amazing marriage. So what are some of those other challenges that you're talking about in terms of maybe the two younger ones? Yeah, so with , our middle daughter,, Rebecca, she was doing a sport where often she was wearing a leotard, just like a gymnastics type of sport. Um, and she was getting hassled as she was ma maturating into an adult going through puberty. Her body was changing and the coach is like, you are getting.. Well, yeah, she's a woman. I'm like, that's what women do. Um, and so she internalized that instead of coming to us and talking to us about it, and I didn't catch it. Um, she started a eating disorder. And so, um, that took us down a pathway that we, I mean, I never in a million years thought we would go down.. And then, um, with Brandon, he had, he also was in the same sport. Um, very successful, very successful, all the way up to worlds, you know, so that was really, um, fabulous for him. But there was also that internal world, um, that he was dealing with the pressure. Um, he, he focused so hyper on that, that he didn't really have a lot of other external., um, outlets. Mm-hmm.. Uh, so his turned into, when he came out, and also he had social anxiety of, you know, going into high school. And when he hit high school, there was several things that happened. He went to Worlds, came back as a champion, or not champion, but he came back and he, um, broke his arm. And so that whole, uh, experience of being at the gym and, and having. Social dynamic went away and then he grew and he really couldn't be doing the same thing that he had been doing, so he decided to quit. Well, there's that huge vacuum and I was ready for that in a sense that that vacuum comes, that's pretty common with gymnastics or swimmers or any child that's doing a, a sport when they stop, a vacuum occur. Um, and they have to fill it with something. I, I had been trying to fill it for, you know, like finding things that he might be interested in, hoping high school could also add some more interesting things. Right. Um, unfortunately he did the common thing, which is he turned to drugs. So now we have a daughter with eating disorder and then we have a child with, um, drug use. And surprisingly, those two things are very common. Um, and they're very similar. because the eating disorder also is like an addiction. Um, and well, addiction to drugs is just a addiction, you know, it's just mm-hmm. Yeah. So we, we had to start working with that and, and some background, um, um, both our families, I, I, I actually have come to a point that I think DNA or biology has a big., Linda's family has many alcoholics. Mm-hmm. and addiction comes in her family, my family, which I was a able to figure out, but my family kind of denies all brokenness. Yeah. Dealt with the murders of both my grandfathers and depression. Um, in our, our family, my grandmother basically got depressed and didn't even see anybody for a long time and didn't even raise my father. I didn't know that until later. So what happens is when you have these dynamics, of depression and alcoholism that come into a family. Mm-hmm., they, they, maybe they affect you sociologically in how you deal with trauma, but they also, I really believe that physical, um, DNA has a big impact and opens up the doors. So when stress happens, you know, in a life like it did with Becca and Brandon, they start looking at. and you combine that with Bay Area culture. Mm-hmm. where certain things are expected and performance is expected, and I should say United States culture. Mm. Uh, I think it, it, you know, sometimes we, we give the Bay Area more, um, we make it worse than it is. We, we've all lived here for a while, but at the same time, um, we re that's when we realized we needed each other's back and we came together. Mm-hmm.. Yeah. More with the two older daughter, the, the oldest, the, excuse me, the middle daughter and our son than we had struggled with our oldest daughter earlier. We realized because of the struggle earlier in, cuz we were, we got pretty mad at each other with Bethany because we both felt like we knew better and if we both changed our behavior, things would get better. Right. We didn't feel that way with our, our daughter and son. Mm-hmm., we felt. Yeah, there were things that we needed to work on ourselves, but we didn't blame each other. No. Um, we realized we needed to come together and our marriage actually got stronger as a result of what we walked through with our kids. Mm-hmm., Chuck, what did the, we need to come together. Can you break that down a little bit just for people to understand, cuz it's, it, I understand what exactly what you're saying. What did that look like practically in how you came together? For me?, I need to listen more to Linda. I realized I don't have all the solutions, so I, I, you know, being successful in business sometimes you think you have the answer. Uh, I think I really came to a humility that I don't have all the answers, so my, my, uh, ability to listen to my wife and to outside people increased as a result of that time. Mm-hmm. and I also reflected on where I was in my life. and I felt like I needed to make some changes in myself. And I think that brought us together too, because I'm a strong leader. I like leading, I like moving forward on, on things. But Linda's voice became stronger in my life at that point. I think. Yeah, I would say that, um, You know, I think with what they were walking through and, um, coming together look like was a, I did a lot of the legwork for, with them and for them. You know, I'm, I'm at home all the time. I'm always dealing with them. I, I would, um, try as much as possible to., um, include Chuck into what we were dealing with, you know, like doctor's appointments, you know, the whole, uh, Rebecca's eating disorder manifested as bulimia. Um, and that's just a wild thing. And so, um, we realized that, you know, I wish, well, okay, so we realized that, well, we were way out of our league. Mm-hmm., um, I might have studied nutrition at Cal Poly. Man, an eating disorder is a whole nother world. And I just, um, scratched my head a lot of time. Cause I thought, you know, that's never something I've ever focused on. I've never focused on, you know, ragging them about food. I've never, um, ragged them on their, their physical parents. No, we didn't, either one of us really. I mean, even in my own self, I was always very mindful of. not, uh, just tearing myself down. Mm-hmm.. Um, so, you know, there was a lot to grow through. I think. Um, a lot of times Chuck was a grounding rod of like, okay, yeah, you, you're not doing that. Um, and he was very supportive. Um, he looked at things and went, Hey, you know, maybe we should try this. Um, I can, I can do this for so long. Let's see what else we can try. So we were trying, uh, rehabs with Rebecca especially, or, um, , kind of like a, what, what was that first one that we did? Center for Change? Well, center for Change was the second time, but the first time we put in a rehab was with, um, a, a therapist and it was a, a group A, so, um, a group therapy, kind of like a, um, AA program. Mm-hmm., A 12 strip program, um, with a lot of group therapy and parent therapy as well. and that did pretty good. Um, again, it just depends on that person, if they're really in the head space to get through it. Um, there were a lot of dicey moments where we were just literally heartbeats away from hospitalizing her. We actually did have to 51 50 her at one point. Um, And that was a whole horrible experience. Um, yeah. I can't even imagine your child, your children. Yeah. Oh, it was, it was horrible. And Chuck was the one time he traveled, he never traveled in, in his career until just recently. It was the one time he was gone and I had to 51 50 her. I called him and said, Hey, I'm doing this. He's like, okay, let's do it. Um, and the police officer, he looked at me at the er and he's like, do you realize what you're doing right now? And I, I literally lost it because my father had committed suicide and she. was like, mom, I'm just, you know, I'm battling these voices that's selling me. I need to kill myself. And so I'm praying and asking the Lord what to do, um, and, and felt like, you know, I got the best wisdom I had. Chuck's like, take her therapist, like take her. So, you know, I took her., but oh my gosh, I just, I remember breaking down and just crying in that experience. And, um, so that, that wasn't a very fun moment for any of us. We learned a lot about grace. Um, I'm a fixer. I think a lot of times people try to fix, fix, fix when they see problems on, on things. And with her kids, you're always evaluating, if I had done these five things versus., these five things, would it have been different? Mm-hmm. and I, I just say as parents, you, you need to take the pressure off. Yes. You will make mistakes. Mm-hmm., we made mistakes. Your kids make their own decisions and the key thing is staying with them in the midst of it. Yeah. As I mentioned, whether it's biological reasons, social reasons. parenting reasons. You're in this for the long haul. Mm-hmm.. And you can, you can make a choice to give up. We just didn't give up our kids. All three are flourishing right now. That's amazing. But they, they, like I said, our oldest kind of smooth after the, when her younger years she flourished. Our two oldest, uh, our two youngest, um, have struggled, you know? Um, and, but now they're flourishing.. And I remember in the middle of that time, for me, I think this is what helped even our marriage, I, I felt like I prayed to the Lord and the Lord sits, um, I go, how do, how do we change this? How do we change them? He goes, Chuck, are you gonna work on yourself? Mm-hmm., I go, God, what do I need to work on yourself? Right? And he says, you can't control them. The only thing you can control is yourself. You just work on yourself during this.. Mm-hmm.. And, um, I think, um, in that relates to marriage too, because I think self centerness is probably one of the biggest issues with marriage. I, you know, I, I, I actually, I came to conclusions. Self centerness was probably more my negative than control cuz I, there's things I like Yeah. And things I like to do. Mm-hmm. and., I really realized some of my own self centerness in, in certain things that I've done mm-hmm. that, um, had some impact. And so I, I said, I'm just gonna work on myself Yeah. And let everything else fall into place. Yeah. I think my biggest problem, or not problem, but challenge was the shame. Mm-hmm., um, you know, we had done as much possible to raise our kids and the Lord.. Um, you know, my greatest desire was to always maintain my own faith, um, and, and maintaining time with the Lord just on my own. Um, And, and then all at the same time, I'm leading women's Bible studies. One of the teachers there , and I'm like, great. My, how my children are falling apart. And you know, Linda, that's real. It's it. But you know what? Ive really come a, as at the backside of this whole journey, um, I have really come to realize the. that Christians maybe, I don't know throughout the world, but I'll tell you right around this neighborhood, um, is so huge in their lives, they don't say anything. Mm-hmm., their household might be falling apart, but on the outside it looks beautiful. Mm-hmm. and I really disqualified myself from. because I felt like, you know, my kids are falling apart clearly. I, I've done something wrong. Um, and now I'm gonna back out a ministry. Um, and I will tell you I have learned since then that, um, that was a sense of shame. But the reality is I'm not disqualified. Right. Um, I really love the term of. Cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure it. And, um, which is a great, um, aa phrase, aa, we, we love a lot of the mm-hmm. the aa, aa and that's what I really jumped into after my kids were, you know, uh, farther along in their problems., I jumped out more into being. Into getting some help for myself cause mm-hmm., that's so important. Something. Yeah. Yeah. That's real. Oh my goodness. Yeah. That is so important. Just how to not be a co-dependent. Oh gosh. Yeah. So easy to be a co-dependent. You don't even see it sometimes. Yeah. Oh, enabling, enabling your kids is amazing. I, I look back and see some of the stupid things I did and I'm like, oh, that was, Uh oh. But, you know, live and learn. At least I'm learning. Yeah. You know, and moving on. And, um, the Lord covers so many things. Mm-hmm. and keeps. I'm, I'm really thankful he kept them alive and you know, where they are now. Um, it just gives me great pleasure when my son says, Hey, I'm gonna just go spend some time with the Lord. You know, I'm like, oh, it makes my heart so happy. Like, he's just in such a good, solid place., um, very, you know, transparent and open. Um, and I just, I appreciate that so much. My oth my other daughter, um, she's just in the same place of transparency and working on herself and, you know, taking time out when things go really rough at work, um, and, and self-care. And I'm so pleased that she's at that place, you know? Mm-hmm.. Mm-hmm.. And, you know, there was a lot of times I didn't know if they were gonna be, I, I really walked into my house many times wondering if I was gonna find a body and, which was horrible. Mm-hmm.. And, um, there, you, you were asking earlier, Tricia, about the, the scripture that Yeah. Got me through that. And really, honestly, it was Psalm 23 and there were so many nights where, oh my gosh, I would just go lay down., the Lord is my shepherd. Mm-hmm. I shall not want. And like that's, I couldn't go any farther. The Lord was like, I'm your shepherd. Mm-hmm., I'm gonna lead you through this. Mm-hmm., there was, you know, and as you know, like, he's gonna give me peace. Um, but at the end of it, it was the Lord. Is gonna restore my soul because by the time these two had gone through all the explosives of hospitalizations and fortunately no arrest, that was a blessing. Yeah. My soul was devastated. Yeah. And you know, I had never turned from him. It was never that point that either one of us had. Mm-hmm.. But there was this sense of, it's a depth of agony to watch somebody. Slip into an addiction. Yeah. Um, and not have any control over it. You just, you just can't control it. Um, and I, I remember late, you just, Being in a place and saying, okay, Lord, you know, I'm always with Bethany. It was like, Lord, have her hit the wallet 25 miles an hour and have her give her an awareness of what she's doing. Mm-hmm., you know, Rebecca, it's like, Lord, have her hit the wall at 50 miles an hour. And then sometimes I'm like, Lord haven't hit the wallet a hundred miles an hour because they need to stay what they're doing. You know? And nothing was changing. Um, but I, I trusted him and I knew he was gonna, and bring them through. It was just, I remember watching Brandon one time run up the up the stairs and we had just found a whole stash of marijuana in his, um, bedroom and he, he, I found it because I was changing his bed while he was at camp. Mm-hmm. at a young life camp. What a wonderful thing to experience and.. I watched him. You was still bringing kids to young life when he was dealing with, he was a great evangelist.. . He's evangelizing while he's home. Oh, he is high. And he's dealing with drug addiction. And it was more than marijuana. So , it went crazy. All of them. The two of 'em both went crazy. But you know, um, I remember watching and the Lord said, I has not seen an ear has not., what the Lord can do with a heart turned over to him. Mm-hmm. and I just held onto that. Mm-hmm. That like the Lord is gonna turn, you know, he's gonna do something with him. Yeah. And, and he did. You know, and, and he's still doing it like mm-hmm., the, the story's not over. Yeah. There was a scripture, um, you know, raise up a child in the way that they will go and when they were older, they will not, apart from it. Yeah. The older , much older. We may not be 12 years old or 16 years old., it may be 22, 26, maybe eight, maybe. Maybe . Yeah. And, and we actually experienced that. In hindsight, I'm watching them right now and they saw us stay with them and our marriage staying. We always, I always use this term, we, we played and prayed. Mm-hmm.. So even in the middle of this hard time, we'd still go out on dates. Yeah. Mm-hmm., we'd go have fun together. Mm-hmm., um, we didn't, when we were taking, um, we were spending a lot of money on, um, them going into rehab. We, we were broke again, . This was like in the like 2012, 2013. And that, that was the time where I heard from the Lord go back to your original DNA of what you should do as a believer. And the simple thing was coin, an E of fellowship, openness to the Holy Spirit. Um, the simple gospel and last, um, worship. Yeah, worship, yeah. Those are the things. So I started reevaluating and going. To what made me come alive as a person. Yeah. And by finding that source of coming alive, we ended up changing churches. That's what, you know, we Infusion came out of this later and we just started doing it. And I had this encounter with the Lord in, uh, uh, January of 2013, where um, I had an all night. and, uh, I felt the love of God just come on me in the middle of the night. Mm-hmm. and this complete acceptance of who I was. And I, and I heard, I kept hearing Welcome back son. Welcome back son. Wasn't about my kids. It was welcome back, son. And, and, and then, and then I felt a, a, a baptism of love like I've never felt before as a young., I had felt the presence of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Holy Spirit as a young man and, and had, and had faith, but this was like never before, and I could actually feel him put a ring on my finger, a robe on my back in my sleep, and a shoes on my feet. and I woke up in the morning and go, welcome back. I didn't even know I went away. Mm. I I did not even know I went away. And Linda woke up that morning and looked at me and said, what happened to us last night? It was crazy. I, the dreams I was having were just absolutely off the chart. Wild. And I'm like, something is going on here. So that was, wow. So, so that has kept our marriage together. A God who loves us. Yeah. A, a common belief that he is in the middle of all this., uh, out of this stuff with my kids, I realized culture like stepping back ha a as we have stepped back from our culture, we, Christians are very judgmental to culture. First of all, we learn not to judge. Yeah. Because we've struggled with all the same things. Right. Um, yeah. Oh yeah. And we also learned that, um, we have a very forgiving God that works with us, and so that helped us forgive one another. Yeah. Mm-hmm. and, and actually has made our marriage. You know, and I would say also another part of our marriage is that we never blamed each other. Yeah. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't his fault. Mm-hmm., you know, we, we looked at our own actions with the kids and, you know, we knew we weren't perfect here and there, but honestly we couldn't have made those choices. We would've never made those choices for our kids. If, you know, if it was us, we wouldn't have said, Hey, you know, you really shouldn't be doing this. Yeah. Um, and so I, that was a part that kept us really. because the minute we start blaming each other right. We just, we just sh done hack it. Yeah. You know that, that, that intimacy. What are, what are some of the things that, with us, that you would pull out questions you have for us? Sure. I, so I have a few. Um, one is a beautiful story that's still being written, right? The redemption, the healing. Mm-hmm., the recovery and your kids on their way to their destiny, their god-given destiny.. There are people that are listening to this and they have not gotten their breakthrough yet. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just curious, what would be your message to, to those people? Don't give up. Yeah. The gift of perseverance. One of the most important things, um, is persevere. Mm-hmm., um, am perseverance comes through your connection with God. Yeah. Um, you need, you need to persevere. And, uh, and have friends in your life who can give you good counsel mm-hmm., and be o be open to changing things and don't punish yourself for, um, even the mistakes you made or the things that are happening with your kids. Just work on yourself in the midst of the time. Mm-hmm., that's, that's what I would say. Mm-hmm.. So I would say, first of all, remember, God loves your children more than. and, um, he's there. Uh, I never felt God left us, even though I never did either. I never felt that I did feel alone. Um, I didn't know how to ask for help. I didn't even know who to ask for help. And the few times I did, I mean, honestly, our church was sorely missing. in the understanding that, oh, eating disorders actually happen in Christian homes. Um, mm-hmm., uh, that was my big first one. And same with drug use. And then, um, So that was the like learning to find help and I ended up finding a, a Christian Al-Anon program that really saved myself. Yeah, we both ended up going, yeah, we were both going through. Excellent. Um, that was really good. That was fabulous. Yeah. And I still really, um, have a heart for recovery, but I think a lot of times we think that, um, that we have to fix that. And if we, if we think that we're being punished because our. aren't being good. That's not true. You know, they're human beings. They're gonna make their own choices. Sadly, children don't have well developed brains. They're still in progress. Mm-hmm.. And um, yeah. You know, one of the things I learned was that children often, you know, the minute they start an addiction or drugs, their brain stops. Yeah. Maturing. And they stop at 14, or our kids did, and they didn't start kicking you. Mating until they were 21. And you can literally see them walking through teenage behavior in their twenties. Um, but remember, God's for you and not against you. Yeah. Um, that he loves us. He loves them. Um, and he's always working behind the scenes. There's so many miraculous. miraculous stories I've heard, and sometimes letting your kids go their own way. Mm-hmm. is really important. People are like, oh my gosh, my kid's going to jail. Well, at least they won't be driving their car through a store, you know? Yeah., you know, um, go to, go to any kind of AA Al-Anon program when you start to hear the real stories Oh. Of what happens with kids. Yes. Mm-hmm.. Um, but I, I always saw God moving even in the, like, the darkest moments of., oh, I don't know where you're gonna go with this. God. And he was always there. And so I always was inviting him into those moments. Um, my favorite moment of seeing God move was we were trying to find a place to take Brandon. Uh, we put him in a wilderness program to basically to begin drying out and getting recovery. Um, and then we transferred him. He, we all decided he, including, Realized that coming back home was not gonna be a good choice, and that's pretty normal with any person in addiction. Um, so we decided to put him into a school and I went to visit one of the schools. Um, Chuck wasn't able to because of some work issues. Um, But we, you know, zoomed him into the call. Mm-hmm., uh, in our meeting times. But I walked into the head counselor's office and as I told you earlier, I was really into the Psalm 23 and, um, always meditating on that and.. I remember the gal, she shut the door and on the back of her door was the 23rd Psalm. Mm-hmm.. And I went, hot dog . Yeah. The Lord's here. I'm like, okay, I, I see you Lord. Like, yeah, you're still doing this. Mm-hmm.. Um, so that's my thing is to, you know, you can't always take, some people can't take their kids to a program like we did. We were. At that point, uh, we were, we were paying more for his school than we could, like, what we were living on. Like we, it was just nuts. It was like two third of our take home pay. Mm-hmm.. Um, and so that's like when I went back to work, we were, this is in 2008 when the economy went down and all my clients went bankrupt. Oh, yeah. And so I, I went from having a whole bunch of clients mm-hmm. to zero clients. And I owed over a million dollars on my partnership. Yeah. So this is all hitting at the same time. Oh, that was Rebecca, actually. Brandon was 2011. 11. 11. Which was not much better.. Yeah. Because we were still coming out of it at that time. It wasn't until 2012, 2013 that our, the economy economy started happening and I started doing incredibly well at business. Mm-hmm. and our company grew. We went. like 70 people to 240 people. So this was not, this was kind of before the big growth mm-hmm., um, with me becoming ceo. Yeah. And I think I learned to be a better CEO as a result of this whole idea. People now still come into my office and talk to me about their issues. Mm-hmm. and were doing a lot to help families here in the Bay Area. Yeah. Yeah. So, but that's, uh, I think that's, those are the things that I would say is really, hold on. You know, God's got this., it's terrifying. Um, but the prayer is so key. Mm-hmm., I mean, I was just constantly praying for him and seeing God answer those prayers. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes just within minutes mm-hmm. and sometimes within years mm-hmm.. So, um, we, we live on a really finite. Timeline and our time is all crunched up and we think it has to happen. Right, right away. Yeah. And God's got eternity. You know? He's got this whole picture going on. Mm-hmm.. And so I line up up with his timing. Yeah, yeah. His timing is really perfect. Yeah. As parents, we create the best scenario for our children. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm., they're gonna do this and they're gonna go do that, and it's gonna be so perfect, and then they're gonna get launched into . They're gonna leave the nest, and then they're gonna go on it. Yes. Yes. And then, reality hits and it's like, wow. The picture that I'm looking at is not the picture that I drew in my head. Yeah. And so in that gap between what we see and what we hope for is this thing that I call love. Mm-hmm.. Yes. And learning to love unconditionally. Yes.. That's so true. I over and over have seen, and I mean, I've just continued to learn about people in addiction and, and, and what they're needing. But you know, honestly, sometimes they just need to know they're loved. You know, so often we, I mean, we feel shame because somebody's in addiction, but they feel shamed because., they're in the addiction. Mm-hmm., like, they see the crazy things they do. They do some horrible things. Mm-hmm., um, and they have such great shame and they feel so unlovable. And I, I feel like, you know, God's love is so expansive and furious and sticky. It's, it's always on for us and on us. Um, we get to pour that. We get to give them that love back. And so yeah, in the Bible, you know, it talks about justification and sanctification, but sanctification happens for a lifetime, especially in marriages and family and the for it deur, you have to stay connected. That's really good. And um, so, um, we had made, we had made a decision when we were, um, younger that we, um, would have certain rules of engagement in our marriage., one of our rules was we would not, um, like use a attack language and tear each other down when we were super angry. That has really helped us during this time. That's good. And, and making some, some good choices like that we, you know, setting some rules that you put into place. We also said that we would, um, make decisions together.. I don't, I think we're very different. As I mentioned, we, we, we defer to one another, um, in what we do. I think that's helped me in business. Mm-hmm., my deferring with my wife has allowed me to defer and build a big company. You said, how do you avoid, how do you do this with being very busy? Well, I usually let other people, um, begin to, um, build and move and I come alongside them and help.. And, um, one of the real important things is recognizing that you don't, you only have so much time to do different things and mm-hmm. I have probably done too much cuz I'm so, I, I love building things. I love seeing things built. I, I, uh, but as I'm getting older, I'm getting better at coming alongside and letting other people build and even fail.. So with your kids, what we had to do is they failed. Yeah. But I stay with them even when they're building. Mm-hmm. and then I try to create opportunities. We've helped 'em financially. Mm-hmm., we helped them in the area of recovery when we needed to do that. Um, we have just been there present with them. Uh, we've got, we've done vacations. We, even in the middle of all this stuff, we played games., all of this, we've stayed with them so that staying together despite the pain is, is really, really important. Mm-hmm., um, it's more important that you connect than you agree with the decisions of your children. Mm-hmm. or even your spouse. Mm-hmm.. Um, I'm thankful that Linda disagrees with me with certain things. Um, sometimes it's hard because mm-hmm. it, it needs mutual agreement, but maybe that's part of the process God wants us to go. Whether I'm right or she's right. We need to stay connected. So connection, yeah. Is what allows you to move forward long term. I like that. Chuck, I, I, I just want to trap something that I think is so important. the rules of engagement. Mm-hmm., and I would also extend that to say, declarations and goals that we established for ourself, like mm-hmm. you know, in the scripture it says, ask for me in my house, we will serve the Lord. Mm-hmm., that is a strong declaration and it basically says anything else that is not of the Lord. Isn't in my house. Yeah. Right, right. And so you talked about not tearing each other down in arguments. Mm-hmm.. So to those who are listening, I just wonder how in the word that's coming to my mind is being intentional. Yeah. We have to be intentional about the environment or the atmosphere that we're going to create so that our relationship can thrive. Yeah. And it sounds like you've been very intentional. We pray together, we worship. Yeah. Right. You each individually. your relationship with Christ. Yeah. Yes. And he draws you closer together. Exactly. Um, there's a lot there. So I ask the audience and the listeners, what rules of engagement have you established in your relationship? Mm-hmm., because we need to be very intentional Yeah. And align it and it in the word and in the truth. Mm-hmm.. Mm-hmm.. Yes. Yes. And, and why are you drawn together wi with Linda? When I met her, um, I was a Cal Poly student studying, but I didn't have self-discipline to do the same, the amount of things that she did, I was smart. I could, I I was good at engineering. Everything was easy for me and to a certain level. Mm-hmm. on, on the math side of things in engineering side, my wife studied, And I didn't study as much. So when I met her, I had to go to the library and hang out with her . And because of Linda, I got on the honor roll because I gave, became more self-disciplined as a result of having her in her life. The other thing about my wife that stands out to me and these little things that you realize that strengthened you were um, when you first met, are things for you to develop and flourish. She sees detail, like she loves the sew, she quilts and she sees every detail and we have an observing mind and we have a kind of a, a thinking mind, more logical Mind me as an engineer, I'm very much that way, but there's, Linda has very much observing mind and she sees everything.. Mm-hmm.. And so one of like all the details of the flowers and all the details will be going hikes and different things we do. Yeah. And so she expanded my brain by hanging out with her and I fell in love with her cuz I would see the beauty of life. Mm-hmm., because I'm always into conquering everything. Yeah. Cause that's who I am. Right. And she stops and smells ci roses . Um, for her a a Life Loving Jesus is success all by itself. Yeah. For me.. I like changing the world., . And sometimes I real, I, I can't change the world by myself. Um, yeah. And I'm only a small part of that. Yeah. And so Linda's helped me, uh, appreciate myself and learn how to step back, even though I still want to change the world. And she loves that about me, I think. Absolutely. Well, you know, it's fun too because Chuck's the person who gets the things. You know, like he keeps things moving along. He keeps expanding things. I, I, I just even think about the fact that, um, when Covid hit, you know, he's stuck in the house for 12 hours a day. Literally it was 12 hours a day, six days a week, and, um, Uh, he went, you know, kind of bonkers, at the end of it, he was like, I can't down ass anymore. I didn't get out , and we had been talking for years. I talked him into like opening his ideas of getting a trailer, but, you know, we didn't really, like, we were slowly moving towards this. He's like, let's make it happen now. And so we bought Airstream. We got Airstream in April. In April after Covid had started. Yeah. And we started traveling all over the United States. Yeah. In the middle of Covid . And I probably wouldn't have really gotten there, you know, like Yeah. You made it happen. It's her birthday present. That is her birthday. It's my trailer. Yeah. It's his car that drives it. Yeah. You know, so, um, But yeah, we, uh, definitely Chuck has, you know, motivated us, got things moving. He gets me moving a lot more. I mean, there's areas that I'm very self-motivated in, but in other areas of our marriage, he definitely keeps us going. And I love that about him. And he's fun, you know, he's just like, let's just do it. And I'm like, Okay. Gee, I guess we can, all right. Let's, you know, and I'm a little more of a plotter and slow. She's a steady plotter. I'm a, I'm a steady plotter and I could be a little slow. I'm a sprinter. She's a marathon runner. Yeah. But now I'm a marathon runner too. Yeah, yeah. And I can pick up my speed and she's now become a better sprinter.. Sort of . No. But yeah, so that's definitely something that we've grown in. So the joy of 38 years. Mm-hmm.. , yeah. Of walking together the unity mm-hmm. that I can hear. Mm-hmm.. Yeah. As you talk, you know each other so well, but you also have gone into the quiet place to know yourself and allowed yourself to align with how God sees you. Yeah. I'm hearing that as well. Yes. Right. The love that, you know, he poured out on you, the robe, the ring, and the shoes, um, that he gave. I guess where I'm wanting to go is you also in the natural though, you had to get to know each other. Mm-hmm., and you've got 38 years of getting to know each other. Someone just got married yesterday. And they're getting ready to embark on this journey. Uhhuh, . Yes. Or maybe they've been married five years or 10 years. Just things that you do to keep the flame. Yeah. Well, you know, I think the number, we scuba dive, we love scuba diving. That's not much of keeping a flame . It's more of a. Sinking. Hey, you look pretty cute in a sweatsuit. Thank you. We're like a girdle . You have to suck it up. Hard and zipper room up. But, um, is it true? Cause I, it looks, uh, yeah, it really is like a girdle. It truly is. Um, but you know, the other things keeps you warm. Yeah, it does keep you warm. Um, I was, I was gonna talk about keeping in.. So my biggest thing is, you know, like forgiving each other. That was the biggest thing. Yeah. Um, and, and having fun and not being so serious. Yeah. Um, and realizing, like we had said earlier, like, you know, the common enemy is not my husband. And, and just even the things., you know, of making time for each other, um, keeping, you know, reserving an energy for each other, you know, because Chuck can, yeah. He's the energizer bunny and he can go, go, go, go, go. But by the time he gets home, it's like, okay, I'm, you know, my batteries need to be recharged mm-hmm.. And so, you know, giving him my introvert comes out. Yes, your introvert does come out. Mm-hmm., but, and learning how to give him that space. Mm-hmm., um, you know, hearing what his needs are, what my needs are.. Um, yeah. Um, but I, I would say that one of the things we have done each, we don't have to do everything together, no. Mm-hmm., we have things that we do together that we love doing together. Yes, we do. And we have things that we both do separately and we celebrate one another and we join each other in those, those things. And., it opens us up. So, uh, Linda loves quilting. I, I am not a quilter. Mm-hmm.. Okay. Uh, I love building things and I love, you know, uh, sports and any kind of competition. I'm, I'm in, I'm, I'm for it. Even things I don't do well, I'll compete with you, Thomas of bowlings on one of these days. I know you will. extremely competitive . So, so, but I love that she's not super competitive., but she appre, she enjoys it. We were at the 49 er game yesterday and we beat the Seattle Seahawks. Gotta get that on this podcast. And uh, we just had a wonderful time and she joined me in something I enjoyed being a part of. Mm-hmm. So join your partner in their passions mm-hmm.. That's good. And celebrating each other and celebrate each other's fashion. Yeah. And find common areas mm-hmm. that you can do together. And, and, and, and, and, and build those things together. Oh man. Chuck, you're You mean we actually have to talk? Yeah, sorry. and spend time and get to know each other beyond the idea. Oh my God. It is true. Yes. You know, one of our favorite things to do, you know, like if we're traveling, um, one of our favorite things to do is to go into art gallery. We love going and doing art galleries together. Yeah. It's hysterical. We don't buy anything. Mm. You know, but we definitely love to do that. And so we'll walk around and if we're in some little town, we'll go into the art galleries and check it out and, but that, it's just something that we love to do together. But I'm gonna get hit something else. We've always had a physical relationship. Yes, that's true. And we enjoy our physical relationship with one another. Yes. And we've always supported one another in that. That's good. Sometimes, um, making love in the afternoon. Mm-hmm. or at certain times, stops fights. Like, like, I'm serious. You, you, you're love, you connect. There's something that goes on spiritually, emotionally that's true in those times. And people, people are so trying to do all these skill sets that the original attraction or what brought the attraction mm-hmm. um, uh, as it moves forward, if you grow.. It helps with all the other areas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all connected. It's all connected. It's all connected. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So we are gonna, we're like at about 10,000 feet now. Okay. You know, we went up and we flew and now we're gonna land the plane. Okay. Sounds good. Um, so one thing I'm seeing already is we're gonna have to go back and extract, cuz I think you've given a lot of Yeah. Wisdom, A lot of practical, real experiences, so Thank you. Yeah. For being vulnerable. Yeah. And, and just opening up your life for a window of time. Us to be blessed by that. And also everyone that's gonna hear this. Yeah. Um, I'm hearing a lot, so I learned a lot here today. Um, having each other's back, I'll just start there. Yes. One team mindset, right? Um, working on self.. Mm-hmm., yes. Mm-hmm.. That, that, that's really key. Yeah. Um, because we've got, you know, I think about the scripture, which is why are you talking about the speck in your brother's eye when you have a plank in your own mm-hmm. Right. Right. So like, let's make sure that we're, we're He's the pot of where the clay. Yeah. Right. So we have to stay soft and malleable. Um, persevere. Mm-hmm.. Yes. That's a big deal. Perseverance. Mm-hmm., I got allowing one another to be each other's.. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right. Definitely. And understanding your strengths, your weaknesses, and allowing that sort of, that unity to come by letting each other, um, be that rock in those places. Mm-hmm.. Yes. And together it gets woven into a beautiful union. Yeah. But, you know, Tricia brings certain things. I think about Tricia stops and smells, the flowers. Mm-hmm., I'm a driver as well. Yes. Um, and it's beautiful, right? She sees things that I just don't see. Mm. much like I think you described Chuck. Mm-hmm.. Um, don't punish yourself. Yeah. Don't punish yourself. Learn to forgive. Mm-hmm. and God loves. our children more than we do. Mm-hmm.. Yes. And don't lose sight of that. Yeah. Yeah. Probably more. Like I said, we're gonna go back and listen to this , and I know there's more. Is there anything else that you took out? Church? I think so. Uh, just a few things. One thing is you were talking about just being vulnerable, especially as even leaders, right? Leaders at your company, leaders at the church, like, um, you know, you were talking about, you know, and at someplace at some point feeling shame. But, but then as you. Started walking, you started being more vulnerable and allowing people in, whether it was Al-Anon or other, other, you know, counselors or that sort of thing, allowing people in to, to help you where you were at, right? Yeah. And so I think that vulnerability piece is key. Uh, the, the scripture that comes to mind is, you know, let, when the light shines in the darkness, the darkness can't be overcome. Our darkness can't overcome it. So just in whatever we're dealing with, with its with our children and our., like finding where that light is the light of Christ. Mm-hmm. and allowing that end, allowing that to shine. And then just that, just everything, all those, that negativity or whatever was, you know, the, the fears and all the, the worries and all those things that was taunting it starts to fall because Christ's lights comes in and starts, you know, melting things away. Yeah. Yes. That's good. I think the last piece I would say is, um, just even when you were talking about Chuck, Allowing your children to fail. I think that's so critical. Especially that can be so hard. Oh, it's tough. Well, it's tough. Yeah. Today's day and age. Right. I was just reading an article that said today's 20 year old is like a 12 year old from 12 from 20 years ago. Mm-hmm.. Wow., just especially on the social side because they're in the media so much. Yeah. Mm-hmm. in their phone. Just this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And does all the protections that we have around them, not allowing them to fail. Because when they fail, they can learn. Right? Right. But so many kids now, I mean, they have a fear just even walking two blocks down the road or you know, walk going somewhere that they don't normally go. And so everyone gets a trophy now. So here's real funny, I used to walk to school when I was eight years old. Mm-hmm., and probably a mile and a half, two miles by. The, uh, El Centro School in South Pasadena. Mm-hmm., I would walk by the Halloween house. That was the one that Jamie Lee Curtis was in . Oh, wow. And I walked by the house every day. Mm-hmm.. And when the movie came out, And everybody went to the movie to get scared. I went to the movie and go, that's the house I used to walk by when I went to school every day, . And, um, you kind of creepy Chuck, you know? Yeah. But what I'm saying is there are things that we're frightened of that have been made up that we shouldn't be part of. There are real, there are are real things and people need to live life. And so what that looks. may be different in today's culture. I mean, we didn't used to wear seat belts. Mm-hmm., um, and that probably wasn't correct. We pro, you know, kids need to wear seat belts, but mm-hmm., um, we have to re, we have to give a place for our kids to explore and learn things because if they make mistake mistakes when they're younger, yeah. They'll make less mistakes as they get older. Yeah. And they realize they don't blow up when they make a fail, have a failure. Right. You know, it's okay to fail. Right? Yeah. Um, we, our culture just, I, I I will say at least in, in the culture I live in here in Livermore, it's not okay to fail. You have to be pretty polished and perfect, and that's just not real life. Right. You know, I, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's interesting. I'm just reminded of. being, when you're a kid, when you have a toddler, Uhhuh and they fall, and the parent that's just like, get up. Yeah. They get up and they don't cry. But if, if the parent goes, oh, you ok, the kid Okay. So I one step. That's why football coaches didn't do that with you. Did they get up? I met a woman at the park with her toddler. And, um, now I have two children at this point, and they're running around. They're little ones, literally like, I think Becca was about two or so, and she's like, how can you do it? And I'm, I'm like, what do you mean? And she goes, I'm going through a bottle of Tylenol a day because I have so much, um, so many headaches. Maybe it wasn't a day, but, but she was eating and having headaches constantly because she was so afraid of letting her daughter. Fall. Like she couldn't let her kid fall. And I'm like, no, that's how they learn. It's okay. You know? And my kids are climbing these super high ropes and you know, they were. running amuck. Um, but I always watched where they went and it's kind of like, you know, it's okay to fall. God lets us fall and fail in the right places, but he watches over us and he gives us the small failures before we hit the big things. Yeah. You know, it's like I knew my kids could do the little slide. Mm-hmm.. before they hit the tall slide. Right. I always watched them and it's just like the Lord, he always watches us as we're climbing up. He'll catch us if we fall. Mm-hmm.. Right. Um, and I would catch my kids, but my kids were monkeys. Mm-hmm. and so I let them climb. Yeah. But I also knew what they could do and what they couldn't do. Mm-hmm.. And so when they came to a tree and said, mommy, would you gimme a boot stop? I said, unless you can climb up that tree, I will not let you get in it. Mm-hmm., you have to learn how to get. Um, on your own. Mm-hmm. and, and so, you know, slowly they got big enough they learned, and by the time they were big enough, they could, and they had learned how to climb up and down safely. So letting them have abilities to fall and knowing what their limits are. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's really good. Well, this has been good time. This has been great. This great you guys. I dunno if we actually, thank you so much. Landed this No, you did already launched into a We landed thing . So the nice thing is we talked about a lot of stuff. We talked about a lot of stuff. There's so much to extract out of here. Yeah. Not only for relationships, but also I think approaching life and then also raising our. Uh huh Um, there's so much that's just gonna ooze out of this audio. Yeah. The, the last and most important, well, not most important, but the one I chuck, we, we we're kindred spirit here, Uhhuh sex in the afternoon, about that. It's almost afternoon. They did make a song about that. I love that. 70 music. Thank you for listening to Seeds for Your Marriage with hosts Trisha and Thomas Walker. We pray this episode has given you tips and tools on how to thrive in your marriage. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at. And Thomas, we want to hear from you. Be sure to leave a review and let us know how we're doing. 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